Ultimecia

[G.SummonerBWM]

[QUOTE=Toph;235216]

And you know this how, exactly? I never saw a copy of Ultimecia's driver license. She looks like a young woman, but she could be much older. Look at Edea. She looks barely older than Squall and the rest of the kids at the end of the game, and we know she's at least a good 20 years older than them. The idea is that sorceress powers lengthen a person's life span. If that were true, then yes, Rinoa could potentially outlive Squall by quite a while.

Originally Posted by Toph

Yes, the part about Ultimecia dying by the hands of a SeeD could have been a prophecy, or just common sense, since she knew she pissed them off. And yes, when a sorceress dies, she passes on her powers. Can you prove to me that Rinoa died and passed hers on to someone, who passed hers on to someone, etc, to reach Ultimecia? There's just as much proof for the idea that Rinoa is Ultimecia.

There's as much proof that Rinoa is not Ultimeica. Also, a sorceress don't have to die to give up her powers. A sorceress can give her powers to someone even when they are not dying like when Edea gave up her powers to Rinoa. In other words, and I quote this in italics, RINOA COULD'VE GAVE UP HER POWERS ANYTIME, ANYWHERE, WHENEVER SHE WANTS! She can be a normal being, which means that this really can destroy the fact that she can actually be Ultimecia.

Originally Posted by Toph

This makes no sense, and I can't figure out what point you're trying to make. Ultimecia did commit crimes in Squall's time. She killed President Deling, she took over Galbadia, Galbadia Garden, and attacked Balamb and Trabia Garden. In a Rinoa suit, she released Adel from her prison, and so on. Unless you're saying that because Rinoa was a good person in the present, she couldn't possibly be Ultimecia in the future, since Ultimecia is evil? That's bullshit. People change.

Also, in Ultimecia's time before she even thought about becoming evil and be the ruler of time, she did not know herself that she committed crimes in Squall's time. Remember that Ultimecia too is a human and comes from a mother's womb so how in the world can she have memories that she did something in the past. In other words, she didn't commit any crimes yet until she went through great persecution that can lead her to try to acheive Time Compression.

Originally Posted by Toph

Rinoa doesn't need to be an expert in GFs to junction one, as you can tell from the game, when she junctions one. Squall and the others would be there for her, UNLESS THEY DIED, which is what the R=U theory suggests. Rinoa is left behind without a knight to protect her, slowly loses her mind and becomes evil, and then forgets most of her past because of the GF.

Originally Posted by Toph

Who has said anything about Ultimecia killing Odine? I think he was long dead by the time Ultimecia used Junction Machine Ellone to muck up the past.

You did. You said something about Odine was killed by Ultimecia before he can complete the Junction Machine. I know that I read that somewhere in one of your posts and I remember it well.

Originally Posted by Toph

And I'm sure the people just love Galbadians, who teamed with the sorceress to help destroy the world. They are the ones that helped Edea/Ultimecia gain power in the present. And after "Edea"'s reign of terror, Adel's tyranncy, and Ultimecia's time compression, I think plenty of people would agree that sorceresses should be locked away or killed. Rinoa's father and her lovable nature wouldn't save her. We could see that in game with Esthar wanting to seal Rinoa away, before she'd even really had a chance to use her powers.

WHAT THE HECK?!!! The people who lives in Trabia and the people who lives in the Balamb Gardens knows who she is in Squall's time and it's most likely that later on, Squall took over Balamb Garden and the generation still know him and Rinoa until they passed away so they wouldn't even dare try to kill Rinoa. It don't just always have to be the Garbadians.

[Kitty]

Learn how to use quote tags right.

There's as much proof that Rinoa is not Ultimeica.

And you've yet to offer any that is convincing.

Also, a sorceress don't have to die to give up her powers. A sorceress can give her powers to someone even when they are not dying like when Edea gave up her powers to Rinoa. In other words, and I quote this in italics, RINOA COULD'VE GAVE UP HER POWERS ANYTIME, ANYWHERE, WHENEVER SHE WANTS! She can be a normal being, which means that this really can destroy the fact that she can actually be Ultimecia.

Edea did not choose to give away her powers. It happened and she was completely unaware. She went to Odine to have him do something to seal her powers so that Ultimecia couldn't possess her again, and he told her that she was no longer a sorceress. So we've seen no sorceresses who have willingly given up their powers while they were alive. And we do know that sorceresses must pass on their powers before they can rest in peace. I would wager that most sorceresses stay that way until they are ready to die. If Rinoa could have given up her powers any time she wanted, why the hell didn't she do that after she returned from space? She obviously had no desire to be a sorceress. The fact that she didn't shows that she can't just pick and choose. The powers were given to her for a reason. And anyway, it really doesn't matter whether Rinoa was on death's door when she passed on her powers or not. You still have no more proof than I do that Rinoa did do so, and didn't grow to become Ultimecia herself.

You did. You said something about Odine was killed by Ultimecia before he can complete the Junction Machine. I know that I read that somewhere in one of your posts and I remember it well.

No. You clearly didn't read what I said. Maybe before you decide to debate, you should become a bit more familiar with what the other side is saying. What I said was that the events of FFVIII are trapped in a time loop. The only way to stop that time loop, to stop Ultimecia from ever traveling back to the past, from destroying her present, or starting time compression would be to either 1) Kill Ultimecia before she gained her sorceress powers (or in the case that she may be Rinoa, kill her before she turns evil, or 2) Kill Odine before he completes Junction Machine Ellone. I said nothing about Ultimecia killing him. Learn to read, please.

Also, in Ultimecia's time before she even thought about becoming evil and be the ruler of time, she did not know herself that she committed crimes in Squall's time. Remember that Ultimecia too is a human and comes from a mother's womb so how in the world can she have memories that she did something in the past. In other words, she didn't commit any crimes yet until she went through great persecution that can lead her to try to acheive Time Compression.

If Ultimecia were indeed Rinoa, then yes, she would be able to remember what she witnessed as a young woman, at least until her memories were eroded by the GF. So, she would be able to remember the terrible things the sorceress did, that as a young woman she had fought against. And these things would be recorded in history. Even if she were not Rinoa, or anyone else alive in Squall's present, she would still be able to research about the time a sorceress took over Galbadia, launched missiles at two gardens and destroyed one of them, and tried to compress time. She might not remember it, and couldn't if she wasn't alive in Squall's present, but if she were interested in sorceress history (which I think she would be when she became one, and especially if sorceresses at that time were horribly mistreated), I don't think it would be too difficult for her to start to think 'maybe the sorceress from the future who did all this back then was me.' Or, if she couldn't make that leap, "Hey, this chick had a smart plan. I should try that."

WHAT THE HECK?!!! The people who lives in Trabia and the people who lives in the Balamb Gardens knows who she is in Squall's time and it's most likely that later on, Squall took over Balamb Garden and the generation still know him and Rinoa until they passed away so they wouldn't even dare try to kill Rinoa. It don't just always have to be the Garbadians.

Maybe if the world were just made up of the few people you can run around and talk to in the few cities located on the world map, Rinoa would be safe. But this is a whole world. You think every person in the entire world would be familiar with Rinoa and sympathetic to her cause? How about the loved ones of people killed during the Sorceress War? Think they'd love to accept another sorceress? How about the people of Garden, who are TRAINED TO KILL SORCERESSES? Think they'd be okay with letting her do whatever she wanted, without monitoring her at all? Or how about all of the people affected by the time compression? Think they'd just forgive and forget? You keep saying yourself that sorceresses become persecuted. We've already seen that Esthar wasn't willing to even give Rinoa the chance to be a good sorceress before sealing her away forever. Why would Rinoa be any more accepted, because she's the daughter of a top general many people probably have good reason to hate, and a singer who had one hit song before getting killed in a car accident? We've seen that many people knew and loved Edea, including her own husband, but mercenaries were still sent to assassinate her when it seemed she was going evil and needed to be stopped.

You have no proof that Squall took over Balamb Garden, or that he would have the authority to order people from killing Rinoa. SeeDs exist to defeat sorceresses. If Rinoa were to start behaving in an alarming way and Squall tried to keep people from killing her, I think there'd be a revolt, a la the Garden Master NORG vs Cid, with people wanting to do their jobs versus those wanting to protect a friend.

And anyways, as I think I said in my last post, the idea behind R=U is that Squall and the rest of Rinoa's friends are DEAD before Rinoa starts acting in an Ultimecia fashion. So Squall wouldn't be around to protect her from SeeD, or the rest of the populace.

[Desert Warrior]

Originally Posted by summonerBWM

so how in the world can she have memories that she did something in the past.

Is this really necessary to comment to? I mean, after all, any big fan of VIII such as yourself would know that GFs cause people to forget things. That was a major part of the group's visit to Trabia.

Originally Posted by Toph

So Squall wouldn't be around to protect her from SeeD, or the rest of the populace.

And more importantly, from herself.

Now, I forget if I mentioned this in another post, but it correlates with the R=U theory. That Ultimecia's original goal of Time Compression was to see Squall again. But then she eventually forgot.

[Kitty]

And more importantly, from herself.

Yes, that too. If Rinoa were to turn evil, I think Squall would be one of the few who could possibly stop her before it was too late.

Now, I forget if I mentioned this in another post, but it correlates with the R=U theory. That Ultimecia's original goal of Time Compression was to see Squall again. But then she eventually forgot.

Yes, you mentioned that in your first post. ^_^

Really, Ultimecia wanting to compress time makes no sense to me, if you look at her as just a random baddie out to take over. I suppose she could always just be insane, but it seems to me like she gets no real benefit from a compressed world. If she is the only one who can exist, well, how lonely and boring would that be? At least, if you want to take over the world, keep the humans around as your slaves.

So, that's why I like the idea of Ultimecia being Rinoa, or being the Great Hyne. I think both of those two characters (assuming Squall dies before Rinoa), have valid reasons for wanting to compress time- wanting to see Squall, or wanting to erase mankind and possibly start again, respectfully.

[Desert Warrior]

Originally Posted by Toph

If she is the only one who can exist, well, how lonely and boring would that be?

I think she's an egomaniac. I'm sure she'll be fine.

[Kitty]

^Eh, but really. Wouldn't an egomaniac need someone around to brag to about how completely awesome she is in every respect?

Ultimecia is just a pretty poorly written character. v_v

[G.SummonerBWM]

Instead of even trying to ramble on and on, I will give you a big piece of information that was stated by Square Enix and another person that shows the reason why I don't believe that Rinoa is Ultimecia. This explains one side that talks about the R=U theory and the other, stronger side that explains why the R=U theory is false. If you like, I can show you more information of this. "This is thanks to GameFAQ's for having this information* I've been doing this research on Rinoa and Ultimecia for years and I was having doubts on this until I saw this link about the two of them last year.

GameFAQs: Final Fantasy VIII (PC) Time/Ultimecia Plot FAQ by Sir Bahamut

Edit: I would also like to state that Laguna says that Ultimecia lives way too far in the future so it's impossible for the two to be the same.

Edit Two: No wonder this theory is so famous. THERE'S NO CONCLUSION TO THIS! IT NEEDS A SEQUEL!!!

[Kitty]

^Are you saying VIII needs a sequel? No, no, no. VIII had enough closure, and I live in fear of some horrible VIII-2 sequel.

I would also like to state that Laguna says that Ultimecia lives way too far in the future so it's impossible for the two to be the same.

What does Laguna know? He's not exactly a genius, here.

I skimmed through the article you linked to (and actually, I think I have read through it in the past). What I think sums up the R=U theory is that there really isn't enough information in the game to decisively say "Yes, Ultimecia is really Rinoa" or not. I think the R=U theory requires one to make some assumptions in order for it to make sense, (such as, for instance, that sorceresses live longer than regular humans), and that there really isn't enough proof that any of those assumptions you have to make are valid. But at the same time, there isn't really anything that decisively proves those assumptions false, that I can recall. R=U's a weak argument, but I think the argument could still be made.

I've been doing this research on Rinoa and Ultimecia for years

This sounds as if you've been hunkered down in a lab or library with your nose stuck in some books incessantly.

Well, since the R=U discussion is over, for now, what about the idea of Ultimecia being the Great Hyne I mentioned in my first post? Honestly, I refuse to admit that Ultimecia is just poor writing, with no backstory. :P

[Desert Warrior]

Originally Posted by Toph

What does Laguna know? He's not exactly a genius, here.

Yeah. That is pointed out when you first learn of him. Squall says he dreamt he was an idiot.

Well, since the R=U discussion is over, for now, what about the idea of Ultimecia being the Great Hyne I mentioned in my first post? Honestly, I refuse to admit that Ultimecia is just poor writing, with no backstory. :P

I'd have to disagree. Simply because that story about the Great Hyne disproves it. They say that the Great Hyne split him/herself into two parts. One part remained with Hyne, the other part became the sorceress's power. If Ultimecia is the last sorceress, then she would have every other sorceress's power. So she would be only one half of the Great Hyne.

[Kitty]

I'd have to disagree. Simply because that story about the Great Hyne disproves it. They say that the Great Hyne split him/herself into two parts. One part remained with Hyne, the other part became the sorceress's power. If Ultimecia is the last sorceress, then she would have every other sorceress's power. So she would be only one half of the Great Hyne.

Good point. Hmm. I wish I could remember where I saw this idea explained, because it had somewhat made sense to me when I read it. >_<

What if the stronger half of Hyne were influencing/possessing Ultimecia, then? Ultimecia still believes herself to be in control, but it is actually Hyne who wants her to compress time (so that s/he could start the world anew)? I guess really, you'd expect that to be more obvious in the game.

Time compression is what gets me. I can think of no good reason why a random person would want to do that. I can see why Rinoa in the future could possibly want to do it. And I can see why a god annoyed with humanity would want to do it. Ultimecia, a random girl who becomes the last sorceress, not so much. She already should have every past sorceresses' powers, as you said, since Rinoa is the only living sorceress after Adel dies, so, she'd only be able to pass it on to one sorceress at a time, right? So why would Ultimecia need to compress time in order to absorb sorceress powers? And what other benefit is there for her?