Ultimecia

[Kitty]

Now, I love FF VIII, and have since the first time I played it. But, I have to admit that there are some pretty big plotholes, mostly related to Ultimecia.

For starters, who the hell is she? We know she's a sorceress from the future, but how far into the future? I would think that it wouldn't be such a far ways into the future, since she seems somewhat familiar with Edea, Adel, Odine (and Junction Machine Ellone), as well as Ellone herself. What was it that turned her evil? Is there a more personal reason for why she hates SeeD so much? And so on.

So, going along with that, she wants to compress time why, exactly? What on earth does she gain from this? A world where only she exists sounds pretty damn boring.

I've heard two theories that I think are interesting. The first, which I see has its own thread in this section (but it is dead) is that Ultimecia is really Rinoa, all grown up (and whacked out). I'm too lazy to write out the whole of this theory, but you could check out the other thread, or google it. I don't believe this theory, and I have heard a few places that S-E has confirmed that it is not true (though I've yet to see any actual proof of that). However, I like that it ties Ultimecia in with the rest of the characters and integrates her into the story more, in my opinion. But, I think that if Rinoa were in fact Ultimecia, we would have learned about it more in game.

The second is that Ultimecia (or at the least her final form) is really the Great Hyne, creator of mankind and source of power of the sorceresses. This I like, though I won't throw my support behind it 100%. In-game (though honestly, I can't remember this part), an old man in Balamb tells a story of Hyne as follows:

*Man
"Long, long ago...When this world was just made, there was a strong god
called 'Hyne'."

Girl
"And, and..."

Man
"This god was very, very strong, but after fighting a lot of monsters, he
became very tired."
"So he made 'people' like you and me to do all the work, and the god went to
sleep."

Girl
"So he took a nap?"

Man
"That's right. However, the god was very surprised when he awoke. Surprised
that there were so many people."

Girl
"Yeah, there are so many people in this world."

Man
"Hyne decided to reduce the number of people by taking away the children."

Girl
"You mean...children like me...?"

Man
"Uh huh. Scary, isn't it? ...Of course, everyone was scared then, too."
"And so, the battle against Hyne began. Even though the people were small,
they all got together, and finally cornered him."

Girl
"Wow!"

Man
"Hyne didn't know what to do. Out of desperation, he gave half of his body
to the people and ran off with the remaining other half."

Girl
"He can do that?"

Man
"Well, he was a god. Anyway, it turns out Hyne tricked the people."
"The half that Hyne ran away with was the half that had the stronger magic."

Girl
"Wow...So we still can't find the other half that ran away???"

*Girl
"Wow...So we still can't find the other half that ran away???"

*Man
"Hmmm...It might be close by, actually. It might even be watching you."

I think Ultimecia trying to compress time makes a lot more sense if she were in fact the Great Hyne (the stronger half). A typical sorceress may have a lot of powers, but she is still human. Humans would not be able to survive Ultimecia's time compression, but she would have. I think that would mean she is something a little more than typical.

Ultimecia wants to take power from all of the other sorceresses (her Scan details tell us this). If she were to do that, would she not be collecting the second half of Hyne that the god left behind for the people?

And after regaining his/her (Hyne is refered to as both, in different parts of the game) full power, I could see why the Great Hyne would want to wipe out the entirety of human kind and, with a clean slate, consider starting anew. Enter time compression.

---

So, discuss. Throw out any more theories you believe, or have heard of. Or, let me know if you think she's just some random character, with no deep meaning. And let me know if any of my information is incorrect, etc. Like I said, I must not have spoken to the residents in Balamb who gave the speech I quoted above, because I honestly can't remember ever hearing it. But I've seen it on more than one source, so I reckon the conversation actually occured.

[Desert Warrior]

Originally Posted by Toph

What was it that turned her evil?

I think it is because she was hunted before she tried to achieve Time Compression. Since she was known of during Squall's time, people would know what she would do. So, in an effort to prevent her actions, people hunted her down. And as an effect, she was traumatized and began hating everybody.

And as another reason as to why she became evil, another suggestion could be that she had no knight. Edea said something along the lines of the sorceresses that did not have knights eventually became evil. Adel being the most obvious example.

The first, which I see has its own thread in this section (but it is dead) is that Ultimecia is really Rinoa, all grown up (and whacked out).

Yeah... I made that thread (Why do all my threads die >_<). Basically, I made it because I saw some videos on YouTube that talked about it. The theory iteslf that I saw didn't explain much. But I remember somebody mentioning that, if Ultimecia is Rinoa, she originally tried to achieve Time Compression to see Squall again (Because he died, and something along the lines of something like sorceresses are immortal). But along the lines she forgot about Squall and became bitter.

[Kitty]

I think it is because she was hunted before she tried to achieve Time Compression. Since she was known of during Squall's time, people would know what she would do. So, in an effort to prevent her actions, people hunted her down. And as an effect, she was traumatized and began hating everybody.

And as another reason as to why she became evil, another suggestion could be that she had no knight. Edea said something along the lines of the sorceresses that did not have knights eventually became evil. Adel being the most obvious example.

In her speech to Galbadia wearing her Edea suit, Ultimecia goes on about how people have persecuted sorceresses for generations (ironically, probably because of her actions in the game's present).

And Edea does mention that sorceresses without knights usually become evil.

Honestly, I just find those shallow reasons for her actions. I'd prefer a more fleshed-out back story for Ultimecia. I don't like to think that's all the effort that could be put into the main villain.

Yeah... I made that thread (Why do all my threads die >_<). Basically, I made it because I saw some videos on YouTube that talked about it. The theory iteslf that I saw didn't explain much. But I remember somebody mentioning that, if Ultimecia is Rinoa, she originally tried to achieve Time Compression to see Squall again (Because he died, and something along the lines of something like sorceresses are immortal). But along the lines she forgot about Squall and became bitter.

Generally, what I have read is that the sorceress powers grant a certain longevity (perhaps immortality unless killed, or just a slower aging process), though honestly, I can't see or remember anything in the game that suggests this, except the fact that Edea looks much younger than Cid. During Rinoa's long lifetime, she loses Squall (old age, he is killed, etc). Without her knight, she slowly goes insane, forgets who she is (which tries to explain away why Ultimecia tried to kill Squall and Rinoa (and the rest) when she faced them as Edea, and why she would leave Rinoa out in space to die), and decides to compress time out of her bitterness and anger, which is all she can remember.

I find it interesting to think that it is actually Rinoa you are fighting against the whole game, and Rinoa does ask Squall to promise to kill her if she ever turns evil, but like I mentioned in the first post, I think that would have been something so major to the story that Square would have had to discuss it more openly in the game.

[G.SummonerBWM]

I just love to shoot down the theory about how Rinoa and Ultimecia are the same. First off, if you ever go back to the present after going to Ultimecia's castle, the three portals on the side.) and then get on the Ragnarok and talk to Rinoa, she will state taht even if Ultimecia is defeated, her powers will reach to her anyways no matter what. Also, sorceresses are not immortal. Sorcerss powers may have the pwoer to make them live a little bit longer but not to make them immortal. Even Adel tried to find a successor to her because her time was near and decided to choose Ellione, which the sorceresses believed that she carries the other half of the Great Hyne's powers. Also, based on Square Enix when you fight the thirteen sorcersses, they said that they sorceresses with blue on them looks like they came from the past, the one decorated in red looks like they came from the present while the final sorceress looks like she came from the future. Ultimecia also states that the people of her time was trying to kill all of the sorceresses and was suffering through great persecution her and she knew that her fate were to die by the hadns of the Legendary seeds so she tried to find a means to escape her fate. So, she chose Time Compression because through there, she can absorbs all time, space and existence, thus making her become a living goddess. Not only that, she wasn't able to do the crimes that she committed yet in the past because in the past after Squall defeated Ultimecia, future generations started to realize about the words that Ultimecia stated and started to target all sorceresses which led her to became the evil sorceress that she is now. It's kind of messed up because of her wanting to use Time Compression, lost and gave her powers to Edea that she made the cycle continue over and over, neverending. Also, if Ultimecia was hunted and persecuted way into the future, don't it makes sense that Rinoa and Ultimecia are not the same person?

She knew about the Junction Machine because Dr.Odin stated that it was his machine that was used based on Ellione's wavelengths in her brain. How did she find it I do not know but if there was more depths into Ultimecia's story, then it would make sense.

[Kitty]

then get on the Ragnarok and talk to Rinoa, she will state taht even if Ultimecia is defeated, her powers will reach to her anyways no matter what.

Whose powers will reach whom? Rinoa's powers will reach to Ultimecia? Well, yeah, because Ultimecia is from the future. You're not time traveling back in time to kill a past Ultimecia. I'm confused as to how this disputes the theory. It would be possible (I'd think likely) that Rinoa would not know that Ultimecia was her future self.

Also, sorceresses are not immortal. Sorcerss powers may have the pwoer to make them live a little bit longer but not to make them immortal.

R=U does not rely on sorceresses being immortal. It does usually concern Rinoa outliving Squall by many, many years, however.

Also, based on Square Enix when you fight the thirteen sorcersses, they said that they sorceresses with blue on them looks like they came from the past, the one decorated in red looks like they came from the present while the final sorceress looks like she came from the future.

What does this have to do with R=U?

Ultimecia also states that the people of her time was trying to kill all of the sorceresses and was suffering through great persecution her and she knew that her fate were to die by the hadns of the Legendary seeds so she tried to find a means to escape her fate

This seems to play into the R=U theory, rather than otherwise. Rinoa fought against Ultimecia, along with members of SeeD. So, if Ultimecia could look back on that and remember herself, however vaguely, as Rinoa fighting a sorceress that resembles herself, she'd know that she was fated to die at the hands of SeeD, and would try to change that future if possible, by compressing time.

Not only that, she wasn't able to do the crimes that she committed yet in the past because in the past after Squall defeated Ultimecia, future generations started to realize about the words that Ultimecia stated and started to target all sorceresses which led her to became the evil sorceress that she is now.

What crimes were Ultimecia unable to commit? I'm not understanding this passage here. My understanding of the game is that the events happen in one huge time loop. Squall and the others don't really defeat Ultimecia, because she will still gain power, still destroy her present, still search for Ellone in the past, still attempt to compress time. The only way to break the cycle would be to find Ultimecia before she gained her powers (or while she was still "good" and hadn't decided to start her campaign to destroy the world) and kill her, or kill Odine before he completes the machine. Then, she wouldn't have been able to go back in time and muck things up. So, everything that we see Ultimecia do in the game, she will continue to do, unless the time loop is broken. Maybe I'm misreading your post.

Also, if Ultimecia was hunted and persecuted way into the future, don't it makes sense that Rinoa and Ultimecia are not the same person?

Not really. It is never said how far into the future Ultimecia hails from. Frankly, if I were a regular human living through the events of FFVIII, I'd be pretty angry with sorceresses too. The persecution had already started to an extent with Adel, and would have grown even more after Ultimecia took over Galbadia and killed the president, then compressed time. Rinoa even caught some of it in the present, with Esthar wanting to seal her away. If Rinoa lived for a long period of time, she would live through that growing hatred and prejudice. And if her memories did begin to fade (from junctioning a GF, such as Griever?), she would forget about when people were kind to her, and only remember the way she is treated as the sorceress Ultimecia, and think it had always been that way.

[/rambling]

[Desert Warrior]

Originally Posted by Toph

And if her memories did begin to fade (from junctioning a GF, such as Griever?)

I'm going to have to argue against the junctioning of Griever specifically. *As a side note, Griever was one of the most used examples for R=U* From what I know, Griever was created from Squall's mind during the battle against Ultimecia. She went into his mind to create what Squall would believe to be the ultimate power, or something along those lines.

[Kitty]

From what I know, Griever was created from Squall's mind during the battle against Ultimecia. She went into his mind to create what Squall would believe to be the ultimate power, or something along those lines.

Yes, that is what it basically says when you scan him. Something along the lines of "In Squall's mind, the most powerful GF". I suppose Ultimecia simply plucked the idea from his mind to scare him. However, R=U theory, like you said, usually uses that as an example, so I threw it out there.

Really, it doesn't matter which GF Rinoa junctioned. Any would have made her slowly lose her memories. Or so the "GF critics" would argue.

[ShiikuuZitronegeliebter]

I think we just need to face the facts that Ultemecia was just a poorly thought out character. :/

Mind you, I've never heard the R=U theory before. If it were true (although it's most likely not), it'd make Ultemecia more interesting, at least.

[G.SummonerBWM]

Rinoa won't be able to outlive Squall by many many years. Maybe three or five years but not by a lot. I'm thinking like Rinoa passing away around the age of 80-90 and Ultimecia is not that old anyways. She's like around her late 20's early thirty's to me. Also, you're misreading my posts. The part about Ultimecia knowing that she will die by one of the Seeds does not means that it relates to Rinoa. It could've became a prophecy during the time of Ultimecia. Also, what I was saying that once it's time for Rinoa to pass away, she will end up giving her powers to someone else and that power will go to someone else until it will finally reach to Ultimecia in the future. Rinoa is not the past Ultimecia at all.

Also, when I said that she was unable to do the crimes that she didn't commit yet, that means that she wasn't able to commit the crimes in Squall's time. This states that she wasn't evil during that time. Also, Rinoa is not an expert at even using the GF's and even if she wants to use GF's, Squall would still be there for her. Also, there's always Selphie and the others who will be there for Rinoa too so there's a chance that they can stand up to be Rinoa's temporary knight. The same way Zell was Edea's temporary knight in Esthar.

I also think that Ultimecia learned about the spell, Time Compression, when the people of her time started to state about things of what happened in the past. I don't believe that Ultimecia even killed Odin during her time because he mostly had passed away after he completed the Junction Machine. To me, it's impossible to even say that Ultimecia is Rinoa if you try to say that 15 years later, she was persecuted. The people already know that Rinoa is the daughter of a general of Deling and they wouldn't try to persecute her. I say that 60-80 years later that Ultimecia came into being. Where in the world would you see a sixty or seventy year old sorceress start fighting?

Edit: I also want to state that there's always Seifer who can stand by Rinoa's side to be her temporary knight.

[Kitty]

I think we just need to face the facts that Ultemecia was just a poorly thought out character. :/

That's so lame, though. I prefer to come up with elaborate theories that probably aren't true, instead.

Rinoa won't be able to outlive Squall by many many years. Maybe three or five years but not by a lot. I'm thinking like Rinoa passing away around the age of 80-90 and Ultimecia is not that old anyways. She's like around her late 20's early thirty's to me.

And you know this how, exactly? I never saw a copy of Ultimecia's driver license. She looks like a young woman, but she could be much older. Look at Edea. She looks barely older than Squall and the rest of the kids at the end of the game, and we know she's at least a good 20 years older than them. The idea is that sorceress powers lengthen a person's life span. If that were true, then yes, Rinoa could potentially outlive Squall by quite a while.

Also, you're misreading my posts.

If you said exactly what you meant when you post, there wouldn't be a misunderstanding.

The part about Ultimecia knowing that she will die by one of the Seeds does not means that it relates to Rinoa. It could've became a prophecy during the time of Ultimecia. Also, what I was saying that once it's time for Rinoa to pass away, she will end up giving her powers to someone else and that power will go to someone else until it will finally reach to Ultimecia in the future. Rinoa is not the past Ultimecia at all.

Yes, the part about Ultimecia dying by the hands of a SeeD could have been a prophecy, or just common sense, since she knew she pissed them off. And yes, when a sorceress dies, she passes on her powers. Can you prove to me that Rinoa died and passed hers on to someone, who passed hers on to someone, etc, to reach Ultimecia? There's just as much proof for the idea that Rinoa is Ultimecia.

Also, when I said that she was unable to do the crimes that she didn't commit yet, that means that she wasn't able to commit the crimes in Squall's time. This states that she wasn't evil during that time.

This makes no sense, and I can't figure out what point you're trying to make. Ultimecia did commit crimes in Squall's time. She killed President Deling, she took over Galbadia, Galbadia Garden, and attacked Balamb and Trabia Garden. In a Rinoa suit, she released Adel from her prison, and so on. Unless you're saying that because Rinoa was a good person in the present, she couldn't possibly be Ultimecia in the future, since Ultimecia is evil? That's bullshit. People change.

Also, Rinoa is not an expert at even using the GF's and even if she wants to use GF's, Squall would still be there for her. Also, there's always Selphie and the others who will be there for Rinoa too so there's a chance that they can stand up to be Rinoa's temporary knight. The same way Zell was Edea's temporary knight in Esthar.

Rinoa doesn't need to be an expert in GFs to junction one, as you can tell from the game, when she junctions one. Squall and the others would be there for her, UNLESS THEY DIED, which is what the R=U theory suggests. Rinoa is left behind without a knight to protect her, slowly loses her mind and becomes evil, and then forgets most of her past because of the GF.

I don't believe that Ultimecia even killed Odin during her time because he mostly had passed away after he completed the Junction Machine.

Who has said anything about Ultimecia killing Odine? I think he was long dead by the time Ultimecia used Junction Machine Ellone to muck up the past.

To me, it's impossible to even say that Ultimecia is Rinoa if you try to say that 15 years later, she was persecuted. The people already know that Rinoa is the daughter of a general of Deling and they wouldn't try to persecute her.

And I'm sure the people just love Galbadians, who teamed with the sorceress to help destroy the world. They are the ones that helped Edea/Ultimecia gain power in the present. And after "Edea"'s reign of terror, Adel's tyranncy, and Ultimecia's time compression, I think plenty of people would agree that sorceresses should be locked away or killed. Rinoa's father and her lovable nature wouldn't save her. We could see that in game with Esthar wanting to seal Rinoa away, before she'd even really had a chance to use her powers.

I say that 60-80 years later that Ultimecia came into being. Where in the world would you see a sixty or seventy year old sorceress start fighting?

What now?